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Place Of Conspiracy Theory--Must Be Clear For Sociology, History
(Apollonian, 29 Jun 14)
JDW (see below-copied): thanks again for ur notes. See, I'm great Spengler enthusiast/defender/expositor, and I'm simply trying to see what fourth turning stuff can add--so far I don't really see anything, though I appreciate ur comments and observations. Note u have much to prove and/or demonstrate and it's great mistake/error for u to think it's established--and again, don't doubt I much appreciate ur courage for attempting to doing so.
Fourth turning sociology depends on history, and the history for it, as I see it understood on this forum, seems to be very weak indeed, same for the economic science/knowledge.
For don't forget the economic advancement of 19th century was hardly interrupted--so the "gilded age" economic advancement wasn't any great change or extra-ordinary. And slavery was never anything to be "atoned for"--abolitionists very small minority at any time. Both before and after "Civil war" the blacks were seen as competition for the white working class--there being considerable number of whites in that class, including many, many farmers who didn't have it too terribly good regarding comforts of life. The "awakenings," transcendental and missionary, I submit, u over-rate.
U bring up Conspiracy theory, very good--for that's the pt. to things historical and sociologic, I'd say--indeed, it's the pt. (quite arguably) to Spengler's "Decline of the West": eventually society/culture is corrupted and collapses as a criminal class takes control, as we see presently.
JDW: don't forget Jefferson's Dec. of Independence was/is literal consp. theory--doubt it?--just read it. The founders extensively discussed conspiracy of the British crown and other, associated interests--which still exist to this very day. Note these very same interests (a) co-opted the Americans, in accord w. Cecil Rhodes ("Rhodes Scholarships"), and (b) then collaborated to put in place the Bolsheviks in Russia--and these facts are indisputable and actually quite well-known.
Christian New Test. is consp. theory, regarding Pharisees & Sadducees who hated and strive to murder TRUTH (Christ)--which inexorably rises again (triumphant resurrection). The Christian sociologic theory is TRUTH (Christ) in its dialectic and conflict w. Lies (Gosp. JOHN 8:44). Don't doubt or forget the great value of Christian literary aesthetics which teaches a great moral for us to this very day, Christianity enhancing and replacing the moral previously taught by Homer, Greeks/Romans having then adopted Christian aesthetic, handing it down to us. Further, observe Book of Revelations gives a lively picture of a cyclic culmination.
Observe, simply as slight details, Martin Luther King was assassinated by gov. conspiracy, this being official, formal finding of a jury verdict. JFK assassination in broad daylight was another conspiracy which 90% or so of people grasp in various polls reported, the Warren report notorious fraud. RFK was another well-known conspiracy. Gulf of Tonkin "incident" was gov. conspiratorial fraud to start a horrific war.
So discussion of consp. theory is NECESSARY, and without it all sociology or history is empty and useless--we only need find an artistic manner, I guess, and as u seem to indicate, for proper discussion, and I do appreciate ur emphasis for delicacy. And u do seem to be sturdy enough for ur ability to so discuss--it's much why I appreciate ur notes and commentary.
More specifically, aside fm Jeff. and Dec. of Independence, observe Jeff's great conflict w. Hamilton over the Bank of US (BUS) issue--this is absolutely fundamental and exists to this day, US Federal Reserve Bank ("Fed") being direct descendent of BUS--note it's getting ready to collapse, in much same fashion as great hyper-inflation of Weimar Germany--and it's why powers (Council on Foreign Relations [CFR] and Trilateralists) behind the Fed are trying to start wars in Syria, Iran, and now Ukraine, as we see.
So u see JDW: it would be terrible if fourth turning actually distracted/diverted us fm these most basic facts for sociology and history, including esp. consp. theory. Fourth turning is USELESS if it can't tell us anything about this conspiracy issue and circumstances.
Note Jefferson vs. Hamilton was taken-up by ideologic followers, Andrew Jackson vs. Henry Clay for the second BUS, the mass-murderer, Lincoln, himself then a follower of his idol, Clay--and that was the end of the great USA founded upon Aristotelian, Enlightenment REASON, ind. freedom, natural rights, etc., definitive beginning of world gov., imperialist dictatorship, League of Nations, and now UN. Of course the anti-rationalism of Rousseau and Kant preceded for undermining of that Enlightenment reason.
The crux, u see, is the Fed, like the BUS banks before, though slightly diff. for operational details, is simply a legalized COUNTERFEITING scam, allowed to literally create "money" (but actually just phony "money" called "fiat") which then allows powers behind it to owning and controlling everything--this is the FUNDAMENTAL conspiracy which has raged since before the beginning of USA, the Bank of England, for example, established in late 17th cent.
U ask, "The question is why the American people are unwilling or unable to hold him [Obama] more accountable." Answer is simple--the same old "bread & circuses" of Roman times--aren't those football games on TV so neat? I saw Capt. America movie the other day, too, and thought it was quite good for the theme of a traitorous gov. setting up weapons to terrorize the American people.
So JDW: don't doubt, once again, I much appreciate ur commentary, but the consp. theory issue is PRECISELY what must be discussed and what MUST be treated adequately by ur fourth turning material--that's why I continue to question u for the basics of ur theories here. Fourth turning would be grossly counter-productive if it diverted fm this all-important conspiracy theme. Thanks again for all ur advice. A.
Fourth turning sociology depends on history, and the history for it, as I see it understood on this forum, seems to be very weak indeed, same for the economic science/knowledge.
For don't forget the economic advancement of 19th century was hardly interrupted--so the "gilded age" economic advancement wasn't any great change or extra-ordinary. And slavery was never anything to be "atoned for"--abolitionists very small minority at any time. Both before and after "Civil war" the blacks were seen as competition for the white working class--there being considerable number of whites in that class, including many, many farmers who didn't have it too terribly good regarding comforts of life. The "awakenings," transcendental and missionary, I submit, u over-rate.
U bring up Conspiracy theory, very good--for that's the pt. to things historical and sociologic, I'd say--indeed, it's the pt. (quite arguably) to Spengler's "Decline of the West": eventually society/culture is corrupted and collapses as a criminal class takes control, as we see presently.
JDW: don't forget Jefferson's Dec. of Independence was/is literal consp. theory--doubt it?--just read it. The founders extensively discussed conspiracy of the British crown and other, associated interests--which still exist to this very day. Note these very same interests (a) co-opted the Americans, in accord w. Cecil Rhodes ("Rhodes Scholarships"), and (b) then collaborated to put in place the Bolsheviks in Russia--and these facts are indisputable and actually quite well-known.
Christian New Test. is consp. theory, regarding Pharisees & Sadducees who hated and strive to murder TRUTH (Christ)--which inexorably rises again (triumphant resurrection). The Christian sociologic theory is TRUTH (Christ) in its dialectic and conflict w. Lies (Gosp. JOHN 8:44). Don't doubt or forget the great value of Christian literary aesthetics which teaches a great moral for us to this very day, Christianity enhancing and replacing the moral previously taught by Homer, Greeks/Romans having then adopted Christian aesthetic, handing it down to us. Further, observe Book of Revelations gives a lively picture of a cyclic culmination.
Observe, simply as slight details, Martin Luther King was assassinated by gov. conspiracy, this being official, formal finding of a jury verdict. JFK assassination in broad daylight was another conspiracy which 90% or so of people grasp in various polls reported, the Warren report notorious fraud. RFK was another well-known conspiracy. Gulf of Tonkin "incident" was gov. conspiratorial fraud to start a horrific war.
So discussion of consp. theory is NECESSARY, and without it all sociology or history is empty and useless--we only need find an artistic manner, I guess, and as u seem to indicate, for proper discussion, and I do appreciate ur emphasis for delicacy. And u do seem to be sturdy enough for ur ability to so discuss--it's much why I appreciate ur notes and commentary.
More specifically, aside fm Jeff. and Dec. of Independence, observe Jeff's great conflict w. Hamilton over the Bank of US (BUS) issue--this is absolutely fundamental and exists to this day, US Federal Reserve Bank ("Fed") being direct descendent of BUS--note it's getting ready to collapse, in much same fashion as great hyper-inflation of Weimar Germany--and it's why powers (Council on Foreign Relations [CFR] and Trilateralists) behind the Fed are trying to start wars in Syria, Iran, and now Ukraine, as we see.
So u see JDW: it would be terrible if fourth turning actually distracted/diverted us fm these most basic facts for sociology and history, including esp. consp. theory. Fourth turning is USELESS if it can't tell us anything about this conspiracy issue and circumstances.
Note Jefferson vs. Hamilton was taken-up by ideologic followers, Andrew Jackson vs. Henry Clay for the second BUS, the mass-murderer, Lincoln, himself then a follower of his idol, Clay--and that was the end of the great USA founded upon Aristotelian, Enlightenment REASON, ind. freedom, natural rights, etc., definitive beginning of world gov., imperialist dictatorship, League of Nations, and now UN. Of course the anti-rationalism of Rousseau and Kant preceded for undermining of that Enlightenment reason.
The crux, u see, is the Fed, like the BUS banks before, though slightly diff. for operational details, is simply a legalized COUNTERFEITING scam, allowed to literally create "money" (but actually just phony "money" called "fiat") which then allows powers behind it to owning and controlling everything--this is the FUNDAMENTAL conspiracy which has raged since before the beginning of USA, the Bank of England, for example, established in late 17th cent.
U ask, "The question is why the American people are unwilling or unable to hold him [Obama] more accountable." Answer is simple--the same old "bread & circuses" of Roman times--aren't those football games on TV so neat? I saw Capt. America movie the other day, too, and thought it was quite good for the theme of a traitorous gov. setting up weapons to terrorize the American people.
So JDW: don't doubt, once again, I much appreciate ur commentary, but the consp. theory issue is PRECISELY what must be discussed and what MUST be treated adequately by ur fourth turning material--that's why I continue to question u for the basics of ur theories here. Fourth turning would be grossly counter-productive if it diverted fm this all-important conspiracy theme. Thanks again for all ur advice. A.
-------------------------above by ap in response to below-copied by "JDW"------------------------
[QUOTE=JDW;505950]First of all, whether society actually advanced is not the issue. The important thing is that by the Gilded age (with slavery out of the way), society was generally satisfied that there was nothing left to atone for. In reality there was, as evidenced by our treatment of the American Indian, but the main issue of the Transcendental awakening was settled. By the time of the Missionary Awakening societies attention was turned toward advancement (that is, improving the general quality of life). Women reluctantly became involved in politics with the hope of voting on laws that would help the family. Child labor violations were seen as an embarrassment to America’s self image as a city on a hill. Americans believed in their country and wanted it to become the greatest it could possibly be.
Secondly, it has been my experience that these discussions break down quickly when one’s political opinions become too heated. If you bring conspiracy theory into this, you’re going to invite a lot of “noise” from both sides. I encourage you (just as I would anyone else) to keep your strong opinions close to your vest and try to discuss this theory as objectively as possible. I’ll even humor your concerns by saying, “Ok, if there is a shadow government that is pulling the strings, how are they using their knowledge of the generation cycle to accomplish their goal?” The point is, whether you believe in conspiracies or not, you can still have this discussion. Just don’t let it get too extreme.
Then you are discussing something other than the generation theory, correct?
Those are very strong statements, and most people on this forum will disagree with. However, what you are seeing is a 4T phenomenon, and I think Rahm Emanuel was onto it when he said “You never let a serious crisis go to waste. And what I mean by that it's an opportunity to do things you think you could not do before.” This is the U.S. Constitution’s third time going through a 4T (not counting the one that created it). In each case, the leader – whether Lincoln, FDR or Obama – felt at liberty to go around some of its provisions. In some of those cases, it could be justified by the emergency. I will agree that Obama has taken it to new level. The question is why the American people are unwilling or unable to hold him more accountable.
I admit that it is the accident of history that Victoria’s reign coincided with two awakenings. I still think the term “Victorian morality” is the best descriptor of the period between Puritan and Boomer morality.
There are two main components of what we call “conservatism” today. The first is constitutionalism, which is what you are talking about. It is often linked to libertarianism, and neither has had any discernible success in this saeculum. (They are both “advancement” ideas.) The second is social conservatism, which is what I am talking about. Most social conservatives, if given a wish list, would want to see the end of abortion on demand; same-sex marriage; the banning of prayer in schools; unrestricted borders; the NEA, the EPA, and a few other things. This would essentially be a return to the 1950s, a time when America was void of moral vision. The Boomer Consciousness Revolution would happen all over again![/QUOTE]
Secondly, it has been my experience that these discussions break down quickly when one’s political opinions become too heated. If you bring conspiracy theory into this, you’re going to invite a lot of “noise” from both sides. I encourage you (just as I would anyone else) to keep your strong opinions close to your vest and try to discuss this theory as objectively as possible. I’ll even humor your concerns by saying, “Ok, if there is a shadow government that is pulling the strings, how are they using their knowledge of the generation cycle to accomplish their goal?” The point is, whether you believe in conspiracies or not, you can still have this discussion. Just don’t let it get too extreme.
Then you are discussing something other than the generation theory, correct?
Those are very strong statements, and most people on this forum will disagree with. However, what you are seeing is a 4T phenomenon, and I think Rahm Emanuel was onto it when he said “You never let a serious crisis go to waste. And what I mean by that it's an opportunity to do things you think you could not do before.” This is the U.S. Constitution’s third time going through a 4T (not counting the one that created it). In each case, the leader – whether Lincoln, FDR or Obama – felt at liberty to go around some of its provisions. In some of those cases, it could be justified by the emergency. I will agree that Obama has taken it to new level. The question is why the American people are unwilling or unable to hold him more accountable.
I admit that it is the accident of history that Victoria’s reign coincided with two awakenings. I still think the term “Victorian morality” is the best descriptor of the period between Puritan and Boomer morality.
There are two main components of what we call “conservatism” today. The first is constitutionalism, which is what you are talking about. It is often linked to libertarianism, and neither has had any discernible success in this saeculum. (They are both “advancement” ideas.) The second is social conservatism, which is what I am talking about. Most social conservatives, if given a wish list, would want to see the end of abortion on demand; same-sex marriage; the banning of prayer in schools; unrestricted borders; the NEA, the EPA, and a few other things. This would essentially be a return to the 1950s, a time when America was void of moral vision. The Boomer Consciousness Revolution would happen all over again![/QUOTE]
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